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________________________|____________________________
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| | ____________________________
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| |________________________|____________________________
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_____________________|
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| |______________________|
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| | ____________________________
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| |________________________|____________________________
|
|
|--Matthew BURNS
|
| ____________________________
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| ________________________|____________________________
| |
| _Charles SHACKELFORD _|
| | |
| | | ____________________________
| | | |
| | |________________________|____________________________
| |
|_Pamela SHACKELFORD _|
|
| _William Thompson HOOPER ___+
| | (1839 - 1896) m 1862
| _Warren Perkins HOOPER _|_Elizabeth Hertell PERKINS _
| | (1876 - 1964) m 1899 (1842 - 1930)
|_Elizabeth M. HOOPER _|
(1910 - 2003) |
| _Jonathan Hatch PARKER _____+
| | (1834 - 1891) m 1870
|_Lucy Barlett PARKER ___|_Marietta HATCH ____________
(1873 - 1956) m 1899 (1845 - 1937)
[5367] living - details excluded
_____________________
|
_____________________|_____________________
|
_Archibald DOUGLAS __|
| (.... - 1333) |
| | _____________________
| | |
| |_____________________|_____________________
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_William DOUGLAS ____|
| (.... - 1384) |
| | _____________________
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| | _____________________|_____________________
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| |_Beatrice LINDSAY ___|
| |
| | _____________________
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| |_____________________|_____________________
|
|
|--Joan DOUGLAS
|
| _Alexander STEWART __+
| | (.... - 1319)
| _John STEWART _______|_____________________
| | (.... - 1331)
| _Thomas STEWART _____|
| | (.... - 1361) m 1353|
| | | _____________________
| | | |
| | |_Margaret ABERNETHY _|_____________________
| |
|_Margaret STEWART ___|
|
| _____________________
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| _____________________|_____________________
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|_Margaret ST. CLAIR _|
m 1353 |
| _____________________
| |
|_____________________|_____________________
A 2009 posting by Jim _____ in GenForm.genealogy.com in reply to Carl _____ "Re: Joan Douglas wife of William Dacre c.1357-1399":
You're agreeing in large part with what I stated before (five + years ago), that there is no evident proof of this Joan's parentage-but also there's really no proof this particular Joan Douglas, as a wife of William de Dacre or daughter of James, Earl Douglas, ever existed at all. The problem stems from earlier derivative sources, The Visitations of Yorkshire for one (1563, 1564, William Flowers, 1881), which on p. 83 (chart) show the wife of William Dacre to be "doghter of therl Doglas" (sic). Also, the first edition of the Complete Peerage, vol. III (1890), p. 2 stated: "he m. Joan Douglas, said to have been an illegit. da. of James (Douglas), Earl Douglas [S.] He d. 20 July 1398."
This last excerpt was corrected in the second edition of the Complete Peerage, vol. IV, p. 6: ": He is said to have m. (g) Joan Douglas.(s) He m. Mary(i)"
Note in the corrected version the subtle "he is said to have" (as in rumored to have) versus the statement he married Mary (unknown). Unfortunately, information, good or bad, once released seems to develop a life of its own. The footnotes (g) and (i) provide more clarification as to the identity of his wife:
"(g) Record as on p. i, note " d." Genealogists add that Joan was illegit. da. of James, Earl of Douglas. But if so (and if she were the mother of the heir), this
worthy, b. about 1358, would have been a grandfather at the age of 29, or thereabouts."
"(i) Writ de dote assignanda " Marie que fuit uxor Willelmi de Dacre chivaler defuncti," 3 Oct. (Close Roll, i Hen. IV, p. I, m. 37)."
Note (g) points out the chronological implausibility that this supposed Joan could not have been both a daughter of James, Earl of Douglas and (as wife of William Dacre) the mother of Thomas Dacre. So if not Thomas's mother, her information is relegated to a less important detail and would not be as important to this lineage.
Note (i) cites a writ assigning Mary, widow of William de Dacre (knight, deceased), her dower. The text dates it 3 October 1399 (he died 20 July 1399) Most social histories of that time period will tell you that such a writ was usually issued within 90 days or so of the death of the husband, as this was. But it identifies his widow as Mary. We have no evidentiary reason to suppose or speculate that Mary was also called Joan or that she was a Douglas.
The subject of illegitimacy during the Middle Ages could (and has) filled volumes. We know it was fairly widespread during that time period; not just among the nobility or royalty. Other than the fathers who acknowledged such children-and apparently most didn't-we only have the recorded instances of leyrwite in manorial courts to go by. Illegitimate pregnancies fell under the catchall term of fornication and leyrwite was usually levied against the woman. For men, such extramarital activities were held as a minor misdeed by medieval churchmen-that is, by those who weren't practicing it themselves. Finding records of out of wedlock children (at a time when perhaps 5% of the population at best was documented) creates a major and often insurmountable task for genealogists and family historians today. If there is no evidence, then following most genealogical guidelines (GPS and others), you'd have to conclude a connection can't honestly be made.
I didn't mention, nor did I notice anyone else in this thread mentioning a will for William de Dacre. Typically, not being mentioned in a will could indicate a number of situations. The child wasn't his, the child predeceased the father, the father had not acknowledged the child, or there could have been a dispute where perhaps the child was disowned. But, charters, chancellery records, charters, and other documents can sometimes be found that might help determine what the situation was and why a child was excluded. But where there is simply no primary evidence of a person ever existing you have to question why a researcher would want to include him or her in a genealogy (other than perhaps as a footnote). Genealogy is, after all, about documentation, not speculation.
As for the possibility of a middle name (e.g. Mary Joan Douglas or Joan Mary Douglas), I'm afraid middle names were not customary in fourteenth-century England. They are a later convention, something on the order of mid-1600s for England-even later before the usage could be called widespread. So, I'd have to disagree with that idea just on this basis alone.
You also mentioned lack of citations in the sources mentioned. If you carefully follow the footnotes in The Complete Peerage, The Scots Peerage, and other similar compilations (with a notable exception to Faris, The Plantagenet Ancestry, where they are usually found in the text) you'll find reference to the sources used. Case in point; CP IV (1916), p. 6 re: William de Dacre, Lord Dacre. While limited to a single paragraph on him, his information contained 6 footnotes (d through i) containing the following citations:
Fine Roll, 7 Ric. II, 12.
Close Roll, m. 13 d
Close Roll, m 42 d
Reference to p. 1, note "d." (which in turn referred to H. Howard, Howard Memorials)
Ch. Inq. P. m., Ric. II, file 109, no. 18
Reference to Dugdale (Baronage or Monasticon Anglicanum, unspecified)
Close Roll, 1 Hen. IV, p. 1, m. 37
As an example of the Scots Peerage (founded on Wood's ed. of Sir Robert Douglas's Peerage of Scotland) citations, here is SP III, pp. 148-155 footnotes for William, 1st Earl of Douglas (a favorite ancestor), father of James (2nd Earl of Douglas and Mar) and George (1st Earl of Angus):
Rotuli Scotiae, i, 709, 749
Reg. Honoris de Morton, ii, 46, 47
Foedera, iii, 246
The Douglas Book, i, 222-228
The Douglas Book, iii, 360, 361
cf. Seventh Hist. MSS, Rep. App. 527
Fordun, ed. 1871, 376
Acta Parl. Scot.,i , 522, 523
Sterlings of Keir, 199
Cf. Liber de Melros, ii, 428-433
The Douglas Book, i, 236
Bain, Cal. Docs. Scot., iv, No. 9
Cf. Acta. Parl. Scot.,i, 524, 525
Bain, Cal. Docs. Scot., iv, No. 91
Acta. Parl. Scot.,i, 495, 496, 526, 527
The House of Douglas, by Sir Herbert Maxwell, i, 86
Cf. The Douglas Book, i, 253, 254
Ibid, 255
The Douglas Book, i, 371
Rotuli Scotae, i, 960
Liber de Melros, ii, 478-480
The Douglas Book, i, 291; ii, 550
cf. The Douglas Book, i, 287
Reg. Mag. Sig., 16 April 1476
Mar Charter Chest
Gen. Reg. Ho., No. 220
Exch. Rolls, iv, 86
Les. Ecossais en France, Parl, Michel, i, 64
i 290; ii, 550
Antiquities of Aberdeen and Banff, iv, 731
Admittedly Cokayne's CP usually provides more sources than most, but it is one of the reasons it's considered a benchmark. It's important to check citations however. Your mention of these shows you are aware of their value. Case in point; earlier in the thread I mentioned Faris, PA, p. 105, the excerpt being: "William de Dacre [5th Lord Dacre of Gilsland] (of baronial descent), by his wife Joan Douglas, said to be base-born daughter of James Douglas, 2nd Earl Douglas." His information is found under the title "Philippe de Neville," wife of Thomas de Dacre (son and heir of William); the citations being:
H.S.P. 16:84 (1881) (1563 Vis. Yorks).
Clay (1913), p. 37.
C. P. 4:7-9 (1916).
Paget (1977), p. 416.
You don't have to go far to find problems here when you check these sources. As previously cited (and despite the phonic spelling), you see in the Visitations of Yorkshire that the supposed father of this Joan was simply listed as the Earl of Douglas (therl Doglas). James was not mentioned by name, and, while he is a possible father, no explanation was given for the interpretation that this necessarily meant it was James, the 2nd earl. Then, the citation to CP IV contains information on William de Dacre on p. 6 and his son Thomas on p. 7, yet the authors are inexplicably citing pages 7-9. Pages 8 and 9 contain information on Joan, Baroness Dacre (p. 8) and Thomas Fiennes, Lord Dacre (p. 9) neither of whom are mentioned. Worse, they took information from p. 6, which they obviously read, but didn't include it in the citation; omitting any mention of the properly cited Mary in favor of the supposed wife Joan Douglas. There is more here that displays less than accurate use of source citations, but these two alone are sufficient to show that, at best, this wasn't very carefully researched or documented.
HTML created by GED2HTML v3.6-WIN95 (Jan 18 2000) [Unless attributed, data © 2013 by Albert E. Myers].
Chloe DOVERSPIKE
15 DEC 1900 - ____
_John T. DOVERSPIKE _+
| (1783 - ....) m 1817
_George Boyd DOVERSPIKE __|_Catherine KNIGHT ___
| (1818 - 1888) m 1847 (1789 - 1850)
_David DOVERSPIKE ___|
| (1853 - 1875) |
| | _William GUMBERT ____
| | | (1799 - 1879)
| |_Sarah Elizabeth GUMBERT _|_Margaret PECK ______
| (1827 - 1875) m 1847 (1795 - 1830)
_David Henry DOVERSPIKE _|
| (1880 - 1929) m 1898 |
| | _____________________
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| | __________________________|_____________________
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| |_____________________|
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| | _____________________
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| |__________________________|_____________________
|
|
|--Chloe DOVERSPIKE
| (1900 - ....)
| _Andreas GEIST ______+
| | (1801 - 1878)
| _Elias H. GEIST __________|_Magdalena HEPLER ___
| | (1823 - 1899) (1803 - 1869)
| _Elias Jr. GEIST ____|
| | (1856 - 1935) m 1879|
| | | _Philip REED ________
| | | | (1795 - 1869)
| | |_Catherine REED __________|_Elizabeth VAN KIRK _
| | (1828 - 1892) (1797 - 1860)
|_Minnie E. GEIST ________|
(1878 - ....) m 1898 |
| _____________________
| |
| __________________________|_____________________
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|_Sarah SHAFFER ______|
(1862 - 1924) m 1879|
| _____________________
| |
|__________________________|_____________________
_Jacob J. HERB __________________
| (1733 - 1806)
_Johann (Johannes) Daniel HERB _|_Maria Kathryn HAUCK ____________
| (1763 - 1844)
_Adam HERB ____________________|
| (1789 - 1860) |
| | _________________________________
| | |
| |________________________________|_________________________________
|
_Gabriel Spotts HERB _|
| (1821 - 1891) |
| | _Sebastian SPATZ ________________
| | | (1726 - 1795) m 1752
| | _Johannes (Spatz) SPOTTS _______|_Maria Esther WENRICH ___________
| | | (1762 - 1856) m 1788 (1731 - 1795)
| |_Magdalene SPOTTS _____________|
| (1782 - 1868) |
| | _________________________________
| | |
| |_Anna Maria KEISER _____________|_________________________________
| (1765 - 1834) m 1788
|
|--Daniel HERB
| (1853 - 1892)
| _________________________________
| |
| ________________________________|_________________________________
| |
| _Johann ("John") Michael PAUL _|
| | (1795 - 1850) |
| | | _________________________________
| | | |
| | |________________________________|_________________________________
| |
|_Elizabeth PAUL ______|
(1825 - 1878) |
| _Johann (John) Michael WOLFGANG _+
| | (.... - 1808)
| _Jonas ("Jonathan") WOLFGANG ___|_Christina WEAVER _______________
| | (1779 - 1853) (1756 - 1815)
|_Elizabeth WOLFGANG ___________|
(1800 - 1870) |
| _________________________________
| |
|_Rosina Elizabeth GRUBER _______|_________________________________
(.... - 1810)
[13028] Daniel's parents are from the unverified tree by Donald Herb in Ancestry.com in 2011.
[32940]
[S1]
LDS IGI - not verified
_____________________
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| |_____________________|_____________________
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_Walter Rogers LARKIN __________|
| (1928 - 1983) m 1953 |
| | _____________________
| | |
| | _____________________|_____________________
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| |_________________________|
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| | _____________________
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| |_____________________|_____________________
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|
|--Carl Rogers LARKIN
|
| _____________________
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| _____________________|_____________________
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| _Harold Wayne MCFARLAND _|
| | (1898 - ....) |
| | | _____________________
| | | |
| | |_____________________|_____________________
| |
|_Lorraine Marguerite MCFARLAND _|
(1925 - 1977) m 1953 |
| _____________________
| |
| _Harry W. TOWNSLEY __|_____________________
| | (1872 - 1935)
|_Mary Emma TOWNSLEY _____|
(1906 - 1982) |
| _Franklin WAGNER ____+
| | (1844 - 1923)
|_Emma WAGNER ________|_Emma WENRICH _______
(1872 - 1949) (1839 - 1913)
______________________
|
_____________________|______________________
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| | ______________________
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| |_____________________|______________________
|
_William Clarence PAUL _|
| |
| | ______________________
| | |
| | _____________________|______________________
| | |
| |_________________________|
| |
| | ______________________
| | |
| |_____________________|______________________
|
|
|--Larry PAUL
|
| ______________________
| |
| _____________________|______________________
| |
| _James LEGER ____________|
| | (1902 - 1975) m 1929 |
| | | ______________________
| | | |
| | |_____________________|______________________
| |
|_Ruth LEGER ____________|
|
| _Henry BRINER ________+
| | (1831 - 1894) m 1855
| _Van Luther BRINER __|_Rosanna Jane STROUP _
| | (1866 - 1950) m 1894 (1825 - 1911)
|_Marian Marjorie BRINER _|
(1905 - 1975) m 1929 |
| ______________________
| |
|_Elizabeth HAAG _____|______________________
(1869 - 1917) m 1894
[9006] living - details excluded
_Richard SCRUGGS ____+
| (.... - 1774) m 1716
_Richard SCRUGGS ____|_Martha DRURY _______
| (1720 - 1799) (1698 - ....)
_Richard (II) SCRUGGS ________|
| (1757 - 1833) m 1779 |
| | _____________________
| | |
| |_____________________|_____________________
|
_William Hudson SCRUGGS _|
| (1801 - 1889) m 1827 |
| | _____________________
| | |
| | _____________________|_____________________
| | |
| |_Ann HUDSON __________________|
| (1762 - 1833) m 1779 |
| | _____________________
| | |
| |_____________________|_____________________
|
|
|--William Hudson Mathers SCRUGGS
| (1835 - 1863)
| _____________________
| |
| _William H. MATHERS _|_____________________
| | (1761 - ....) m 1784
| _William Henry (Jr.) MATHERS _|
| | (1796 - 1842) |
| | | _Solomon SHAD _______
| | | | (1723 - 1768)
| | |_Margarett SHADD ____|_____________________
| | (1767 - 1823) m 1784
|_Rebecca M. MATHERS _____|
(1805 - 1863) m 1827 |
| _____________________
| |
| _____________________|_____________________
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|______________________________|
|
| _____________________
| |
|_____________________|_____________________
[19052] William served as Private in Co. H, 3rd FL Infantry (med. disc.) and as a Private in Co. D, 2nd Batt'n, FL Infantry (dec.) - as reported by James Scruggs, who states that William died of wounds received at the Battle of Olustee. William's military service is also recorded on his gravestone. Bill Scruggs give other dates for William - b. 1832, d. 21 April 1864 - the 1835-1863 dates are from Ellis G. Piper, Sr. William m. 18 Nov 1857 in Screven Co., GA Malinda D. Colson (sister of James D. Colson) according to Richard Gowdy's message on www.boards.ancestry.com in 2000. The note associated with his grave in findagrave.com states: "Husband of Malinda D Colson (1838-1908), married 18 Nov 1857 in Jefferson County. She was the daughter of William Colson and Martha Dell Colson. Her brother, James Colson, married William's sister, Margaret Scruggs, in 1853. Malinda's burial location is unknown, probably Alachua County, FL. [William's grave] inscription: Pvt Co D 2 BN Fla Inf CSA. Note: William is not actually buried here but there is an Honorary Marker for him...he is buried in an unmarked grave in Lake City, Columbia County, FL . He died on 21 Apr 1864 in General Hospital while in service with the Confederate States Army."
[7582] living - details excluded
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|--Margaret WHETEHILL
| (1453 - ....)
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