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_Archibald DOUGLAS __|
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_William DOUGLAS ____|
| (.... - 1384) |
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| |_Beatrice LINDSAY ___|
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|--Joan DOUGLAS
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| _John Stewart of BONKYL _+
| | (1246 - 1298)
| _Alexander STEWART __|_________________________
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| _John STEWART _______|
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| | |_Margaret ABERNETHY _|
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|_Margaret STEWART ___|
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|_Margaret ST. CLAIR _|
m 1353 |
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A 2009 posting by Jim _____ in GenForm.genealogy.com in reply to Carl _____ "Re: Joan Douglas wife of William Dacre c.1357-1399":
You're agreeing in large part with what I stated before (five + years ago), that there is no evident proof of this Joan's parentage-but also there's really no proof this particular Joan Douglas, as a wife of William de Dacre or daughter of James, Earl Douglas, ever existed at all. The problem stems from earlier derivative sources, The Visitations of Yorkshire for one (1563, 1564, William Flowers, 1881), which on p. 83 (chart) show the wife of William Dacre to be "doghter of therl Doglas" (sic). Also, the first edition of the Complete Peerage, vol. III (1890), p. 2 stated: "he m. Joan Douglas, said to have been an illegit. da. of James (Douglas), Earl Douglas [S.] He d. 20 July 1398."
This last excerpt was corrected in the second edition of the Complete Peerage, vol. IV, p. 6: ": He is said to have m. (g) Joan Douglas.(s) He m. Mary…(i)"
Note in the corrected version the subtle "he is said to have" (as in rumored to have) versus the statement he married Mary (unknown). Unfortunately, information, good or bad, once released seems to develop a life of its own. The footnotes (g) and (i) provide more clarification as to the identity of his wife:
"(g) Record as on p. i, note " d." Genealogists add that Joan was illegit. da. of James, Earl of Douglas. But if so (and if she were the mother of the heir), this
worthy, b. about 1358, would have been a grandfather at the age of 29, or thereabouts."
"(i) Writ de dote assignanda " Marie que fuit uxor Willelmi de Dacre chivaler defuncti," 3 Oct. (Close Roll, i Hen. IV, p. I, m. 37)."
Note (g) points out the chronological implausibility that this supposed Joan could not have been both a daughter of James, Earl of Douglas and (as wife of William Dacre) the mother of Thomas Dacre. So if not Thomas's mother, her information is relegated to a less important detail and would not be as important to this lineage.
Note (i) cites a writ assigning Mary, widow of William de Dacre (knight, deceased), her dower. The text dates it 3 October 1399 (he died 20 July 1399) Most social histories of that time period will tell you that such a writ was usually issued within 90 days or so of the death of the husband, as this was. But it identifies his widow as Mary. We have no evidentiary reason to suppose or speculate that Mary was also called Joan or that she was a Douglas.
The subject of illegitimacy during the Middle Ages could (and has) filled volumes. We know it was fairly widespread during that time period; not just among the nobility or royalty. Other than the fathers who acknowledged such children-and apparently most didn't-we only have the recorded instances of leyrwite in manorial courts to go by. Illegitimate pregnancies fell under the catchall term of fornication and leyrwite was usually levied against the woman. For men, such extramarital activities were held as a minor misdeed by medieval churchmen-that is, by those who weren't practicing it themselves. Finding records of out of wedlock children (at a time when perhaps 5% of the population at best was documented) creates a major and often insurmountable task for genealogists and family historians today. If there is no evidence, then following most genealogical guidelines (GPS and others), you'd have to conclude a connection can't honestly be made.
I didn't mention, nor did I notice anyone else in this thread mentioning a will for William de Dacre. Typically, not being mentioned in a will could indicate a number of situations. The child wasn't his, the child predeceased the father, the father had not acknowledged the child, or there could have been a dispute where perhaps the child was disowned. But, charters, chancellery records, charters, and other documents can sometimes be found that might help determine what the situation was and why a child was excluded. But where there is simply no primary evidence of a person ever existing you have to question why a researcher would want to include him or her in a genealogy (other than perhaps as a footnote). Genealogy is, after all, about documentation, not speculation.
As for the possibility of a middle name (e.g. Mary Joan Douglas or Joan Mary Douglas), I'm afraid middle names were not customary in fourteenth-century England. They are a later convention, something on the order of mid-1600s for England-even later before the usage could be called widespread. So, I'd have to disagree with that idea just on this basis alone.
You also mentioned lack of citations in the sources mentioned. If you carefully follow the footnotes in The Complete Peerage, The Scots Peerage, and other similar compilations (with a notable exception to Faris, The Plantagenet Ancestry, where they are usually found in the text) you'll find reference to the sources used. Case in point; CP IV (1916), p. 6 re: William de Dacre, Lord Dacre. While limited to a single paragraph on him, his information contained 6 footnotes (d through i) containing the following citations:
Fine Roll, 7 Ric. II, 12.
Close Roll, m. 13 d
Close Roll, m 42 d
Reference to p. 1, note "d." (which in turn referred to H. Howard, Howard Memorials)
Ch. Inq. P. m., Ric. II, file 109, no. 18
Reference to Dugdale (Baronage or Monasticon Anglicanum, unspecified)
Close Roll, 1 Hen. IV, p. 1, m. 37
As an example of the Scots Peerage (founded on Wood's ed. of Sir Robert Douglas's Peerage of Scotland) citations, here is SP III, pp. 148-155 footnotes for William, 1st Earl of Douglas (a favorite ancestor), father of James (2nd Earl of Douglas and Mar) and George (1st Earl of Angus):
Rotuli Scotiae, i, 709, 749
Reg. Honoris de Morton, ii, 46, 47
Foedera, iii, 246
The Douglas Book, i, 222-228
The Douglas Book, iii, 360, 361
cf. Seventh Hist. MSS, Rep. App. 527
Fordun, ed. 1871, 376
Acta Parl. Scot.,i , 522, 523
Sterlings of Keir, 199
Cf. Liber de Melros, ii, 428-433
The Douglas Book, i, 236
Bain, Cal. Docs. Scot., iv, No. 9
Cf. Acta. Parl. Scot.,i, 524, 525
Bain, Cal. Docs. Scot., iv, No. 91
Acta. Parl. Scot.,i, 495, 496, 526, 527
The House of Douglas, by Sir Herbert Maxwell, i, 86
Cf. The Douglas Book, i, 253, 254
Ibid, 255
The Douglas Book, i, 371
Rotuli Scotae, i, 960
Liber de Melros, ii, 478-480
The Douglas Book, i, 291; ii, 550
cf. The Douglas Book, i, 287
Reg. Mag. Sig., 16 April 1476
Mar Charter Chest
Gen. Reg. Ho., No. 220
Exch. Rolls, iv, 86
Les. Ecossais en France, Parl, Michel, i, 64
i 290; ii, 550
Antiquities of Aberdeen and Banff, iv, 731
Admittedly Cokayne's CP usually provides more sources than most, but it is one of the reasons it's considered a benchmark. It's important to check citations however. Your mention of these shows you are aware of their value. Case in point; earlier in the thread I mentioned Faris, PA, p. 105, the excerpt being: "…William de Dacre [5th Lord Dacre of Gilsland] (of baronial descent), by his wife Joan Douglas, said to be base-born daughter of James Douglas, 2nd Earl Douglas." His information is found under the title "Philippe de Neville," wife of Thomas de Dacre (son and heir of William); the citations being:
H.S.P. 16:84 (1881) (1563 Vis. Yorks).
Clay (1913), p. 37.
C. P. 4:7-9 (1916).
Paget (1977), p. 416.
You don't have to go far to find problems here when you check these sources. As previously cited (and despite the phonic spelling), you see in the Visitations of Yorkshire that the supposed father of this Joan was simply listed as the Earl of Douglas (therl Doglas). James was not mentioned by name, and, while he is a possible father, no explanation was given for the interpretation that this necessarily meant it was James, the 2nd earl. Then, the citation to CP IV contains information on William de Dacre on p. 6 and his son Thomas on p. 7, yet the authors are inexplicably citing pages 7-9. Pages 8 and 9 contain information on Joan, Baroness Dacre (p. 8) and Thomas Fiennes, Lord Dacre (p. 9) neither of whom are mentioned. Worse, they took information from p. 6, which they obviously read, but didn't include it in the citation; omitting any mention of the properly cited Mary in favor of the supposed wife Joan Douglas. There is more here that displays less than accurate use of source citations, but these two alone are sufficient to show that, at best, this wasn't very carefully researched or documented.
HTML created by GED2HTML v3.6a-WIN32 (May 17 2004) on Thursday, March 28, 2024 4:55:02 PM Eastern Standard Time [Unless attributed, data © 2024 by Albert E. Myers. Corrections and additions always welcome.]
Gail Louise STANLEY
[53014]11 OCT 1953 - 30 JAN 2023
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_James W. STANLEY ________|
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|--Gail Louise STANLEY
| (1953 - 2023)
| _Ephriam STROUT ______+
| | (1779 - 1865)
| _John A. STROUT _______|_Lydia BROWN _________
| | (1815 - 1900) m 1852 (.... - 1852)
| _Stephen D. STROUT ______|
| | (1856 - 1892) |
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| | |_Dorcas Fernald TRACY _|______________________
| | (1827 - 1909) m 1852
| _Adfer Alvah STROUT ___|
| | (1883 - 1970) m 1917 |
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| | |_Alfreda G. FICKETT _____|
| | (1861 - 1934) |
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|_Alfreda Gertrude STROUT _|
(1918 - 2004) |
| _Thomas Call HANSCOM _+
| | (1807 - 1883) m 1835
| _Thomas Oren HANSCOM __|_Adaline ORCUTT ______
| | (1840 - 1917) m 1861 (1807 - ....)
| _Albert Raymond HANSCOM _|
| | (1874 - 1931) m 1894 |
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| | |_Hannah Amelia JORDAN _|______________________
| | (1844 - 1924) m 1861
|_Helen Louise HANSCOM _|
(1896 - 1987) m 1917 |
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|_Anna Gertrude BAILEY ___|
(1869 - 1932) m 1894 |
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[53014] "The Ellsworth American [Ellsworth, Maine]," 22 February 2023: "Bar Harbor - Gail Louise (Stanley) Leland, 69, died peacefully at home on Jan. 30, 2023. She was born Oct. 11, 1953, in Bar Harbor, the daughter of James and Alfreda (Strout) Stanley. She grew up in Trenton, where she enjoyed the outdoors with her father and brother Gary. They spent time clamming, rabbit hunting, snowmobiling and lobstering. She learned knitting, cooking and sewing at the hands of her mother, Alfreda, and grandmother, Estella. Her first year of high school was spent at Gilman in Northeast Harbor before moving to the new MDI High School. She graduated Class of 1971. Gail went on to the University of Maine-Machias, where she graduated with a bachelors degree in elementary education. Following graduation, she married Carroll Leland on Oct. 18, 1975. She taught at Eden Nursery School for a couple of years. After this, she became heavily involved in the family business, Trenton General Store, and with her husband continued to grow the business into a full-service supermarket, Carrolls IGA. In 1980, Gail and Carroll purchased Seaside Cottages in Town Hill from his aunt, Ethel Flood, who established seven housekeeping cottages on Clark Cove in the late 50s. Gail operated the cottage rental business, while Carroll primarily ran the grocery business. Through Seaside, they met and made many lifelong friends. Gail followed in Alfredas footsteps as a faithful member of Church of Our Father in Hulls Cove, where she was involved with many programs including Episcopal Church Women, Vestry and the Downeast Church Fair that she helped organize, and with her family, ran the famous lobster booth for 51 years. Her faith was a guiding force throughout her life. She not only heard the Word, she lived it. She was a member of the board of directors, secretary and treasurer of the Trenton Chamber of Commerce. She participated in local quilt groups, was an amazing knitter, artistic sewer, and was generous in sharing her creations. She and Carroll prioritized family. Many adventures took place with their children and extended family, such as camping trips to Lily Bay at Moosehead Lake, Thomas Island, Donnell Pond, island hopping in the boat, Sugarloaf trips, Rock Crossing lodge hunting camp and yearly vacations around the world. Gail was involved in her childrens activities including being a Boy Scout leader, Girl Scout leader and Sunday school teacher. Gail and Carroll held residential lobster licenses, often bringing guests and families to share the adventure with, and a photo opportunity. Many times, they cooked off lobsters and invited guests to join them for a feast. She continuously served others. She was a dedicated caregiver for her aging parents and other elderly family members. She volunteered many years at Sonogee Nursing Home. Her goodness wore off on everyone she met. She cherished her time with family and friends. Her home was always a welcoming place to gather. She cherished being Grammie, passing on her knowledge of crafting, sewing and always being compassionate. Gail brought peace and love to anyone who knew her. She was able to share joy in the hearts of many, both young and old. She is truly an angel of the Lord; her spirit lives with us forever. Gail was predeceased by her parents, brother Gary Stanley and infant sister Mary Helen Stanley. She is survived by her husband of 47 years; her sons, Christopher and David; daughter Mary and her husband Ben Hopkins; grandchildren, Celeste, Izzy, Estella, James and Lucy; stepson Matt Guthrie and his children Dylan and Anna; sister-in-law Kathy Stanley; Missy, Mackenzie and many friends, nieces and nephews."